Now, let's get an idea of what it is
like to work in that hospital prior to
those explosions. And we speak again
with Dr. Nick Maynard, consultant
surgeon at Oxford University Hospital,
volunteering just a few weeks ago at
that hospital and as indeed has appeared
um on the show. Um can you give us an
idea prior to the explosions obviously
what the conditions would have been like
there. Doctor, good morning.
>> Uh good morning. Thank you for asking me
on. Uh uh they are appalling the
conditions in NASA hospital. I left uh
four weeks ago. Um the hospital is on
its knees. It's the last remaining uh
partly functioning major hospital in
Gaza. The only hospital really capable
of dealing with major trauma, but it's
on its knees. It cannot function
properly. And this of course is another
devastating blow. Um to to to refer to
your previous caller, uh this wasn't
incompetence by the Israeli uh military.
This was a deliberate targeting. We've
seen this on multiple occasions. I do
not believe a word that spokesman said.
No one has any faith there'll be an
independent investigation. There weren't
just five journalists killed. There were
two medical students killed. Two medical
students whom I taught in the hospital
four weeks ago. They were on the
intensive care unit being taught at the
bedside of a patient when they were
killed. Where they bombed yesterday, it
is not incompetent. The Israeli military
knew perfectly well where they bombed
was immediately above the intensive care
unit, immediately above the operating
theater complex. This is a deliberate
targeting of hospitals the like of which
we have seen on multiple occasions over
the last 22 months. Do
>> Dr. You're a very well educated man. Can
you define why they would choose to do
this?
>> I think
part of their deliberate policy to
examples of this. I I don't think we
need to question it anymore. It is it is
a clear deliberate policy to to destroy
the whole infrastructure of the health
care system to destroy the whole
infrastructure of living in Gaza as part
of their policy of ethnically cleansing
and carrying out genocide. And I think
the evidence for that is overwhelming.
Now
>> lastly, do you want to say about a word
about the two medical students who were
lost in your memories of working with
them?
>> My heart and love goes out to them and
their families. I remember them well.
Um, literally four weeks ago I was teach
them. It is yet another deep deep
tragedy and a completely preventable
tragedy if our western governments
actually held Israel to account and
stopped these atrocities.
>> I'm very grateful for you finding time
for this morning. I know you're a busy
BBC man. Thank very busy man. Thank you.
Dr. Nick Maynard, consultant surgeon at
Oxford University Hospital who, as he
said just four weeks ago was working at
that very hospital. Let's bring into the
conversation Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan
Conrius who's a former IDF spokesperson
and a senior fellow at the foundation
for defense of democracies. Thank you
for coming on Lieutenant Colonel. So we
hear from someone yesterday that this
will be investigated by the relevant
mechanisms to quote directly within the
IDF. What are those relevant mechanisms?
Good morning to you.
>> Good morning. Thanks for having me on.
Well, there are mechanisms or there's a
task force uh which is independent
outside of the chain of command which is
uh gets its authority from the chief of
staff and they are there in order to
investigate exactly issues like this.
What appears to have happened is a
misidentification on the ground where
Israeli troops operating nearby
misidentified and thought that what they
were seeing was a Hamas cell or Hamas
terrorists that were actually collecting
intelligence on them when it in fact it
appears to have been journalists. And uh
I think that what Israel will have to
provide swift and and uh clear answers
about are two issues. One, the initial
mistake of misidentification and then
the second thing which will be more
difficult to explain given the visuals
and and what we understand now the
decision to strike for the second time
which as we understand probably was the
more lethal one and uh should probably
more easily have been prevented. So
there's a lot to answer for. I hope that
the IDF will do it swiftly and
transparently and provide those found
findings for for people to see and
understand.
>> You've been a member of the IDF. You
have far greater understanding and I've
read in the past that it's one of the
most brilliantly skilled military forces
on the planet and yet they have fatal
incompetence.
184 journalists have been killed since
the start of the latest war. The entire
Vietnam War, only 63 journalists lost
their lives. Why this staggering level
of incompetence from the IDF?
>> So I don't think it is incompetence. I
>> So you hit a hospital once and then you
decide to hit it again. How would you
describe that, Lieutenant Colonel?
>> No, no. So I'll I'll I'll explain. The
issue here is that what Hamas has done
is that they have greatly well they've
basically taken the journalistic
profession and hijacked it for their
terrorist purposes.
>> How on earth have these five individuals
been hijacked? Do explain.
>> No. No. So I I'll I'll separate. You
asked a general broader question. I was
very clear and unequivocal about what I
feel about this incident, the first
incident, the incident that we're
talking about, but if I could put things
into context, I think that is important.
What we see in Gaza is Hamas hijacking
the journalistic profession. whether it
is actual active Hamas members and
combatants that are putting on press
vests occasionally when they're out on
the field and there's ample evidence of
that happening or where there's
journalists who are part-time and
freelancing also for Hamas government
communications or propaganda efforts. I
don't think that what Israel is doing in
Gaza is incompetence. I think that what
we're seeing is a terrorist organization
hijacking journalists and I if I were a
journalist I would be enraged not only
by the fact that my fellow media workers
have been killed but that an
organization is so putting people at
risk.
>> Nothing gets near the importance of
human lives and sadly more have been
lost but one does have to lastly address
this what this has done for the global
reputation of Israel and the IDF and it
is worsening almost by the day. Is it
now not time to instead of using the
relevant mechanisms of the IDF to
investigate this ever growing number of
killings, you bring in an independent
organization, whether it's Britain,
whether it's Germany, whatever it might
be, a country that you trust, and let
them actually find out what's gone
wrong. Left tenant colonel,
>> uh I think that it's very important to
be transparent and to
>> then let's let's have a German body or a
British body investigate them. uh with
Britain's standing and with the
statements about supporting a
Palestinian state.
>> I understand that's why you mentioned
Germany as well. I can understand that
you don't have much love for Secure Star
at the moment. Germany then.
>> No, I I think it's important to do it
swiftly and transparently. Uh no, I
don't think that Israel is going to have
>> But don't you think that would be
healthy?
>> I think that what Israel if Israel now
there are two things that are important.
one to do it quickly and swiftly and two
that there are consequences and actions
taken for those that were involved in
this
accident or in incident and who made
wrong decisions.
>> All right, I'm very grateful for your
time. Thank you for picking up on the
call. Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan
Conrius is a former IDF spokesperson and
a senior fellow at the Foundation for
Defense of Democracies.